4GB . So how is this different from VLIW? What prevents a large company with deep pockets from rebranding my MIT project and killing me off? My (admitted unreliable and from someone who followed that from far) recollection is that what HP(*) and Intel failed to achieve on the compiler front is the language level extraction of parallelism, not the low level which would have been present in a byte code. Donald Knuth, a widely respected computer scientist, said in a 2008 interview that "the "Itanium" approach [was] supposed to be so terrific—until it turned out that the wished-for compilers were basically impossible to write." Other machines at the time - namely UltraSPARC - were in-order, but IPF had other considerations too. Intel y HP reconocen que Itanium no es competitivo y lo reemplazan por el Itanium 2 un año antes de lo planeado, en 2002. No existing software ran on itanium which was entirely the cause of its downfall. It could have been some POWERPC64 (but it probably wasn't because of patent issues, because of Microsoft demands at that time, etc...). There's enough instructions there to create good bundles. That's fine; the compiler already has that information, so it is straightforward for the compiler to comply. With the Alpha chip design team at AMD, the Athlon already showed their ability to create competitive performance and x86-64 takes away the 64 bit advantage. One was encoding space. Moderators: NeilBlanchard , Ralf Hutter , sthayashi , Lawrence Lee this is really programming related - just because it mentions hardware does not make it server fault material. Does "Ich mag dich" only apply to friendship? As a result, you ended up needing to rely on speculative features - namely, speculative loads (loads that were allowed to fail - useful if you didn't know if you'd need a load result) and advanced loads (loads that could be re-run, using recovery code, if a hazard occurred.) DeepMind just announced a breakthrough in protein folding, what are the consequences? In other words, it externalizes a secondary responsibility, while still failing to cope with the primary responsibility. Great points. http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~skadron/cs654/cs654_01/slides/ting.ppt, Itanium's VLIW instruction bundles frequently increased code size by a factor of 3 to 6 compared to CISC, especially in cases when the compiler could not find parallelism. I don't know why they don't just take x86_64, strip out all 32bit stuff and backwards compatible things like 8087 emulation, mmx etc. Itanium never achieved the necessary price/performance advantage necessary to overcome "platform inertia" because it was frequently delayed to compensate for issues 1-4. All these above factors slowed adoption of Itanium servers for the mainstream market. site design / logo © 2020 Stack Exchange Inc; user contributions licensed under cc by-sa. the 3 instructions/word have been good as long as the processor had 3 functional units to process them, but once Intel went to newer IA64 chips they added more functional units, and the instruction-level parallelism was once again hard to achieve. -- so where people were strung along from 1998 to 2002 to wait for McKinley now that the year of McKinley arrived, they were told, wait that's too expensive, the next one will be better, or if not, then the one after. The big barrier at the time was 4 GB RAM on desktop PCs (more realistically ~3.4GB usable on Windows). Part of it were technical reasons, such as that the initial product was too large/expensive and not fast enough to be competitive, especially not compared to AMD's x64. But why was the compiler stuff such a difficult technical problem? Convert negadecimal to decimal (and back). It's not like a good, well-understood solution to this problem didn't already exist: put that burden on Intel instead and give the compiler-writers a simpler target. Why is the pitot tube located near the nose? Working with WSUS, I sometimes find myself declining the exact same type of updates each month after Patch Tuesday. The question can be rephrased as: "Given a hardware platform that is destined to be a failure, why (1) didn't (2) couldn't the compiler writers make a heroic effort to redeem it?". The AMD Opteron. Instruction-Level Parallel Processors ). The notice will apply to the Itanium 9720, 9740, 9750, 9760 models as well as the Intel C112 and C114 Scalable Memory Buffer. This was part of a response about the value of multi-core processors. Erm. As you look to deploy these feature updates in your organization, I want to tell you about some changes we are making to the way Windows Server Update Services … In short, Intel tried to make a revolutionary leap with the IA64 architecture, and AMD made an evolutionary step with x86-64. Instruction-Level Parallel Processors, http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~skadron/cs654/cs654_01/slides/ting.ppt, http://web.eece.maine.edu/~vweaver/papers/iccd09/iccd09_density.pdf. Itanium came out in 1997. It's commonly stated that Intel's Itanium 64-bit processor architecture failed because the revolutionary EPIC instruction set was very difficult to write a good compiler for, which meant a lack of good developer tools for IA64, which meant a lack of developers creating programs for the architecture, and so no one wanted to use hardware without much software for it, and so the platform failed, and all for the want of … was not that simple; converting a large set of C programs which assumed a 32 bit integer and assumed 32 bit addressing to a native 64 bit architecture was full of pitfalls. Compilers have decent success at extracting instruction-level parallelism, as are modern CPU hardware. There were also branch and cache prefetch hints that could really only be used intelligently by an assembly programmer or using profile-guided optimization, not generally with a traditional compiler. The Itanium chip might have given Intel much grief, but it is through difficult and sometimes failed projects that companies learn. This ate into available memory bandwidth, which was becoming an increasingly limited resource at the time Itanium was released. Put simply, Itanium failed in part because Intel pushed a task into software that software compilers aren’t capable of addressing all that effectively. February 24, 2020 seasoned_geek. What are the technical reasons behind the “Itanium fiasco”, if any? I think Itanium still has its market - high end systems and HP blade servers. VLIW machines can and do execute multiple bundles at once (if they don't conflict). Why do most Christians eat pork when Deuteronomy says not to? How can one plan structures and fortifications in advance to help regaining control over their city walls? Actually, I shouldn’t say the project failed. By this point, the UCSD P-Code bytecode system was nearly 20 years old, the Z-machine just slightly younger, and the JVM was the hot new rising star in the world of programming languages. Intel and Itanium, in my book, ranks up there with Microsoft and MS-DOS: despite how lousy it may have been technically, it enabled them to utterly dominate the industry. How do I orient myself to the literature concerning a topic of research and not be overwhelmed? As to why Itanium failed I am not informed enough to give you a complete answer. As he mentions near the end, at the mere sight of Itanium, "one promising project after another was dropped". Who doesn't love being #1? Many have tried all have failed. It is an example of failure to apply the 80-20 rule of optimization: Optimizing things that are already fast will not meaningfully improve overall performance, unless the slower things are also being optimized. (This was before Thumb2, et al - RISC still meant fixed-length rigidity.) [closed], early Itanium CPUs execute up to 2 VLIW bundles per clock cycle, 6 instructions, informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=1193856, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Top500.procfamily.png. How do I know if the compiler broke my code and what do I do if it was the compiler? They maintain a dynamic instruction window of roughly 100 instructions, and within that window they execute instructions whenever their inputs become ready. If anyone does not catch the sense of fatalism from that article, let me highlight this: Load responses from a memory hierarchy which includes CPU caches and DRAM do not have a deterministic delay. Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube. Hewlett-Packard decided later to outsource the development of OpenVMS to VMS Software Inc. (VSI) headquartered in Bolton (Massachusetts, the USA). There a new version of Itanium out, the 2500 series. Itanium designed rested on the philosophy of very wide instruction level parallelism to scale performance of a processor when clock frequency limit is imposed due to thermal constraints. AMD's move was so successful that Intel (and Via) were essentially forced to adopt the x86-64 architecture. What a truly pathetic business model! In hindsight, the failure of Itanium (and the continued pouring of R&D effort into a failure, despite obvious evidence) is an example of organizational failure, and deserves to be studied in depth. So fast chip with a reasonable OS but a very limited set of software available, therefore not many people bought it, therefore not many software companies provided products for it. Itanium failed to make significant inroads against IA-32 or RISC, and suffered further following the arrival of x86-64 systems which offered greater compatibility with older x86 applications. So you have to know how and why it works at least a little. Lactic fermentation related question: Is there a relationship between pH, salinity, fermentation magic, and heat? Neither SPARC nor MIPS offers exceptional performance on the type of applications Alpha is good at. 2. Closed again. Is it worth getting a mortgage with early repayment or an offset mortgage? For scientific computation, where you get at least a few dozens of instructions per basic block, VLIW probably works fine. Where did the concept of a (fantasy-style) "dungeon" originate? Incompatibility with x86 code? The issue with EPIC is that it can use only the parallelism that a compiler can find, and extracting that parallelism is hard. What you describes is a bit what Transmeta tried to do with their code morphing software (which was dynamically translating x86 "bytecode" into Transmeta internal machine code). Itanium was announced in 1997 (as Merced at the time) but it didn't ship until 2000 which is what eventually doomed it, really. What is the easiest way in C# to check if hard disk is SSD without writing any file on hard disk? Complexity of compilers? AFAIK, Intel EPIC failed because compilation for EPIC is really hard, and also because when compiler technology slowly and gradually improved, other competitors where also able to improve their compiler (e.g. AFAIR, he wasn't talking about Intel's fiasco, only about the "Itanium project" fiasco... Would you call MS-DOS a fiasco, then? which prevented it from competing vs out-of-order PowerPC CPUs. Also the IA64 architecture has builtin some strong limitations, e.g. In particular: It was late, eventually shipping for the first time in the middle of 2001; It was initially underpowered … The main problem is that non-deterministic memory latency means that whatever "instruction pairing" one has encoded for the VLIW/EPIC processor will end up being stalled by memory access. What is this “denormal data” about ? http://web.eece.maine.edu/~vweaver/papers/iccd09/iccd09_density.pdf. Why did George Lucas ban David Prowse (actor of Darth Vader) from appearing at sci-fi conventions? Re:Why Itanium Failed. It wasn't x86 compatible. Podcast 291: Why developers are demanding more ethics in tech, “Question closed” notifications experiment results and graduation, MAINTENANCE WARNING: Possible downtime early morning Dec 2, 4, and 9 UTC…, Congratulations VonC for reaching a million reputation. Is there a way to notate the repeat of a larger section that itself has repeats in it? This meant you couldn't rely on reorder to save you in the event of a cache miss or other long-running event. Compilers have access to optimization info that OOO hardware won't have at run time, but OOO hardware has access to information that is not available to the compiler, If it is externally, starting from a byte-code make it even harder than starting from an higher level language. I don't think even the Mill team make that claim (their merit factor include power). Itanium's main market now is a mission critical enterprise computing which is a good $10B+/year market dominated only by HP, IBM and Sun. DeepMind just announced a breakthrough in protein folding, what are the consequences. Their non-VLIW compilers are top-notch, regularly pumping out code much faster than other compilers. PSE avoids this layer by instead using 4 reserved bits in the page tables to specify the high bits. Why was the Itanium processor difficult to write a compiler for? The second key difference is that out-of-order processors determine these schedules dynamically (i.e., each dynamic instruction is scheduled independently; the VLIW compiler operates on static instructions). What IBM said was that with PowerPC, you could compile bytecode quickly and the CPU would make it fast. - C++. Historical background for EPIC instruction set architectures, EPIC: An Architecture for In response to answer by Basile Starynkevitch. In reality, prefetching is only profitable if you are performing streaming operations (reading memory in a sequential, or highly predictable manner). David W. Hess (dwhess@banishedsouls.org) on 7/6/09 wrote: >My observations at the time were that the 386 performance increase over the 286 The compiler simply can't find independent instructions to put in the bundles. While i've always felt that the argument of "the compiler was the one and only problem" was overblown - there were legitimate microarchitectural issues that really did I2 no favors for general-purpose code - it was not especially fun to generate code for compared to the narrower, higher-clocked OoO machines of the day. Memory is getting vague... Itanium had some great ideas that would need great compiler support. IBM has had many failed projects – the Stretch system from the 1950s and the Future Systems follow-on in the 1970s are but two. The coping strategies (mentioned in the same article) assumes that software-based prefetching can be used to recover at least part of the performance loss due to non-deterministic latency from memory access. It also isn’t hard to understand why Compaq’s chose Itanium. [81] Itanium failed because VLIW for today's workloads is simply an awful idea. At the time of release software developers were waiting for a decent marketshare before writing software for it and PC buyers were waiting for a decent amount of software before buying. BTW, for me variable latency -- between models, data dependent for some instructions in some model, memory access is obviously a major category here -- is one aspect of the difficulty of parallelism extraction. Do MEMS accelerometers have a lower frequency limit? What killed Itanium was shipment delays that opened the door for AMD64 to step in before software vendors commited to migrate to IA64 for 64 bit apps. The compilers had to patch up late-to-detect flaws of CPU implementations, and some of the performance edge was lost to hard to predict mistakes. Well, they were also late (planned for 98, first shipment in 2001) and when they finally delivered the hardware, I'm not even sure that it delivered what was promised for the earlier date (IIRC, they at least dropped part of the x86 emulation which was initially planned), so I'm not sure that even if the compilation problems has been solved (and AFAIK, it has not yet), they would have succeeded. They employ many talented engineers and computer scientists. DSP. by SunFan on Monday February 28, 2005 @01:50PM and attached to IBM to Drop Itanium. By making their architecture backwards compatible with the x86 instruction set, AMD was able to leverage the existing tools and developer skill sets. Register to join beta. As a former compiler writer, it's true that being able to take an existing compiler back and tweak it for performance is better than writing one all over again. What was an issue is the hyper-threading implementation by swapping stacks during memory IO was too slow (to empty and reload the pipeline) until Montecito etc. How can I discuss with my manager that I want to explore a 50/50 arrangement? In an established market, evolutionary steps that allow knowledge workers to leverage existing skills will win over revolutionary steps that require everyone to learn new skills. Intel® Itanium® Processor product listing with links to detailed product features and specifications. Hybrids between von-Neumann and dataflow do exist (Wavescalar). There is a second aspect of the failure which is also fatal. There were a number of reasons why Itanium (as it became known in 1999) failed to live up to its promise. Sad. Non-mainstream RISCs are losing grounds; They didn't see that or hoped it would become mainstream; too bad it wouldn't because there weren't any reasons for that. @OregonGhost: this is not a PC configuration question. What is the output of a fingerprint scanner? Removing intersect or overlap of points in the same vector layer, Building algebraic geometry without prime ideals. Intel are probably the. Any memory access (read or write) has to be scheduled by DMA transfer; Every instruction has the same execution latency. Itanium failed to make significant inroads against IA-32 or RISC, and suffered further following the arrival of x86-64 systems which offered greater compatibility with older x86 applications. It increases the size of page table entries to 8 bytes, allowing bigger addresses. The IPF platform bet on the compiler and tools, and it was the first archiecture to expose an extremely complete and powerful Performance Monitoring Unit (PMU) design, that was later ported back to Intel x86. Why is a third body needed in the recombination of two hydrogen atoms? Let me put it another way. Asked by Adah Doyle. rev 2020.12.2.38097, The best answers are voted up and rise to the top, Software Engineering Stack Exchange works best with JavaScript enabled, Start here for a quick overview of the site, Detailed answers to any questions you might have, Discuss the workings and policies of this site, Learn more about Stack Overflow the company, Learn more about hiring developers or posting ads with us, Really-low-level IRs (that are actually specified beyond being internal to one compiler, and intended to be compiled onto specific hardware rather than interpreted portably) are a more recent invention AFAIK. If it is in the processor, you have just another micro-architecture and there is no reason not to use x86 as public ISA (at least for Intel, the incompatibility has an higher cost than whatever could bring a cleaner public ISA). However, the page tables then hold fewer entries so an extra layer of page tables is added. IPF was in-order, for one. Sort of the best out of both approaches. Itanium failed because it used a VLIW architecture - great for specialized processing tasks on big machines but for general purpose computing (ie. The third key difference is that implementations of out-of-order processors can be as wide as wanted, without changing the instruction set (Intel Core has 5 execution ports, other processors have 4, etc). Well, the only reason really is HP-UX. (*) You also seem to underestimate HP role in EPIC. TL;DR: 1/ there are other aspects in the failure of Itanium than the compiler issues and they may very well be enough to explain it; 2/ a byte code would not have solved the compiler issues. So this initial problem of "chicken and egg" seemed to be solved. It merely says that the burden of indicating data dependency now falls on the compiler. I guess that their management underestimated the efforts needed to make a compiler. Is there any reason why Intel didn't specify a "simple Itanium bytecode" language, and provide a tool that converts this bytecode into optimized EPIC code, leveraging their expertise as the folks who designed the system in the first place? This made me wonder why exactly this processor is so unpopular and, I think, failed. Granted, the vendor's other ventures, such as hyperthreading, SIMD, etc., appears to be highly successful. For future processor architectures the strategy you describe might be good now that the JVM has demonstrated that a JIT can achieve general-purpose code performance that's competitive with native code, but I don't think that was clear when IA64 was being developed. In other words, any hardware design that fails to cope with (*) the non-deterministic latency from memory access will just become a spectacular failure. How do I place the Clock arrows inside this clock face? POWER would be an option, but IBM is a competitor and Compaq already has a working relationship with Intel. Aleksandr, as an aside, dataflow architectures have all dependencies explicit. [failed verification] According to Intel, it skips the 45 nm process technology and uses a 32 nm process technology. As Robert Munn pointed out -- it was the lack of backward compatibility that killed the Itanium ( and many other "new" technologies). While he describes the over-optimistic market expectations and the dramatic financial outcome of the idea, he doesn't go into the technical details of this epic fail. (That said, if your code makes frequent access to some localized memory areas, caching will help.). Reordering of memory and arithmetic instructions by modern compilers is the evidence that it has no problem identifying operations that are independently and thus concurrently executable. When you could really properly fill it, which often involved either PGO or hand-coding, it did great - but a lot of the time, performance from compilers was really just uninspiring. Assuming this doesn't merely resolve to "what were they thinking," it's a pretty good question. To help explain why it is not always possible to find enough work to fill up the stalls, here is how one could visualize it. More details on this issue are available here. The first Itanium chip was delayed to 2001 and failed to impress most potential customers who stuck to their x86, Power and SPARC chips. A lot of stuff can be done static that otherwise is inefficient in hardware. Second, Itanium world (~2001): Updates in processor design and manufacturing can deliver 1.1x speedups. Regardless of the qualitative differences between the architectures, IA64 could not overcome the momentum of its own x86 platform once AMD added the x86-64 extensions. The compiler aspect was not the only aspect which was overly ambitious. Processor architecture as a lot to do with programming. Windows Server 2008 R2 builds on the award-winning foundation of Windows Server 2008, expanding existing technology and adding new features to enable organizations to increase the reliability and flexibility of their server infrastructures. Choose a random function for analysis. It was hard to make a single binary that performed optimally on multiple generations of Itanium processors. I've heard some JITs gave worse perfomance than interpreters on Itanium because gcc optimized interpreter better; that's a no-go if a processor requires that level of optimizations. Early chips were atrocious. And as several explained, EPIC compilation is really hard. The big problem is that when it asked me to run root.sh on both node 1 & 2 it returns Checking to see if Oracle CRS stack is already configured Setting the permissions on OCR backup directory Setting up NS directories Failed to upgrade Oracle Cluster Registry configuration. There were a number of reasons why Itanium (as it became known in 1999) failed to live up to its promise. Microsoft was never full-in and embraced AMD64 to not be boxed-in with only Intel as a player, and Intel didn't play right with AMD to give them a way to live in the ecosystem, as they intended to snuff AMD. Building algebraic geometry without prime ideals, I accidentally added a character, and then forgot to write them in for the rest of the series. Getting these right was hard, advanced loads especially! No one knows if its hardware or software, but it just isn't do-able. It's commonly stated that Intel's Itanium 64-bit processor architecture failed because the revolutionary EPIC instruction set was very difficult to write a good compiler for. Schedule the following script to decline all Itanium updates. By: Mark Christiansen (aliasundercover.delete@this.nospam.net), July 6, 2009 8:07 am. There is a hint in "Intel would have been happy to have everyone [...]" but it's not clear to me if you're implying whether this was a deliberate decision by Intel (and if so, what you have to support this assertion). Look at SGI Mips, DEC Alpha... Itanium was just supported by the loosers, SGI & HP servers, companies with managements that piled on strategic business mistakes. Despite all attempts taken, DEC failed to make prices on their Alpha processors, ... OpenVMS 8.4 for Alpha and Itanium was released in June of 2010. site design / logo © 2020 Stack Exchange Inc; user contributions licensed under cc by-sa. And downvoted. The question waited for you so long :-) As for the quote, I believe it is from Donald Knuth: Why has noone made an architecture where instructions carry additional info (about dependencies, etc) to make out-of-order easier/cheaper? by m50d on Monday February 28, 2005 @02:43PM and attached to IBM to Drop Itanium. HP has been at this since 1988 when they acquired Cydrome IP and hired Bob Rau and Michael Schlansker from the company when it collapsed (see Historical background for EPIC instruction set architectures and EPIC: An Architecture for We chose at the time instead to build PowerPC back ends to support the flavors of Unix boxes that were being built on it. By 1993 they decide it's worth developing it into a product and they are looking for a semiconductor manufacturing partner and in 1994 they announce their partnership with Intel. Wabbitemu Ram Cleared, Amy's Enchiladas Vegan, Negroni Sbagliato Pronunciation, Estuary Animals List, Townhouses For Sale London, Baby Knitting Books, " />

why itanium failed

I mean, most people. Re:Why Itanium Failed 80x86 has supported 36-bit physical addressing (or a limit of "not quite 64 GiB of RAM") since the introduction of PAE and PSE36 in about 1995. Why was the first compiler written before the first interpreter? The problem is that the CPU is still going to idle for tens to hundreds of cycles over a memory access. Aleksandr, there are multiple parts to the answer. That's why x86_64 chips are. Burdening a new supposedly-faster architecture with a slow VM would probably not make buyers very happy. By using our site, you acknowledge that you have read and understand our Cookie Policy, Privacy Policy, and our Terms of Service. It was only difficult relative to the alternatives. What would seem like a trivial effort for a company offering a software product -- recompile and retest your C code base (and at that time most would have been written in pure C!) I accidentally used "touch .." , is there a way to safely delete this document? Why is a third body needed in the recombination of two hydrogen atoms? So then what are/were the technical reasons of its failure? Demonstrating how slowly markets move, it has taken years for applications to catch up to 64-bit, multi-threaded programming, and even now 4GB RAM is standard on low-end PCs. Performance-wise with similar specs (caches, cores, etc) they just beat the crap out of Itanium. Itanium servers are 10x expensive than x86 for similar processor count. More succinctly, Intel vastly underestimated the inertia from those wearing the yoke of backward compatibility. Same again when they moved to Core Duo. If you look at ISA successes, it's often not the technical side that rolls the dice. I updated my answer in response to one of your claim. Itanium - Why it failed? Had AMD never come up with x86-64, I'm sure Intel would have been happy to have everyone who wanted to jump to 4GB+ RAM pay a hefty premium for years for that privilege. In a CPU like the Itanium or the SPARC with 200+ registers, this can be rather slow. Of course, technical reasons aren’t the only reason why Itanium failed. Why did the Intel Itanium microprocessors fail? "True" programmers don't need to know the architecture of the machines executing their codes??? Itanium instructions were, by nature, not especially dense - a 128-bit bundle contained three operations and a 5-bit template field, which described the operations in the bundle, and whether they could all issue together. Several issues: a) add something to the instruction set, and you need to support it even if it makes no sense anymore (e.g., delayed branch slots). How do people recognise the frequency of a played note? Performance is still much higher compared to x86. What is the easiest way to embed a bluetooth to any device? We understand those are the last of the Itanium chips available, launched in 2017 as four and eight-core parts, meaning by Fall 2021, it's all over for the doomed family. So this was not really a problem. If we consider the following steps: For most general-purpose software, these three must be executed in quick succession. Many versions of Itanium even has a small x86 CPU inside to run x86 code. The real reason for this epic failure was the phenomenon called "too much invested to quit" (also see the Dollar Auction) with a side of Osborne effect. AMD was something of a threat but Intel was the king of the hill. x86-64 smashed that barrier and opened up higher power computing to everyone. The problem was it wasn't one feature, it was many. I don't buy the explanation that IA64 was too difficult to program for. I guess is that they did not have enough compiler expertise in house (even if of course they did have some very good compiler experts inside, but probably not enough to make a critical mass). We're stuck at 3+GHz, and dumping cores with not enough use for it. (*) If we could ever make NOP do useful work ... Modern CPUs try to cope with the same using dynamic information - by concurrently tracking the progress of each instruction as they circulate through the pipelines. By using our site, you acknowledge that you have read and understand our Cookie Policy, Privacy Policy, and our Terms of Service. Re:Visionary. You are probably too young to know the entire story. Does your organization need a developer evangelist? For more modern workloads, where oftentimes you get about 6-7 instructions per basic block, it simply doesn't (that's the average, IIRC, for SPEC2000). At that time Java and JVMs were in fashion. It is I guess technically possible to enhance out-of-order execution this way, though I'm not aware of solid approaches. I learned a lot about OS reading the ARM reference manual. PowerPC worked because Apple worked very hard to provide an emulation layer to 68000. It also means yields are lower ... Not until you get into Madison and Deerfield in 2003 do you start talking about volume." But AMD Opteron DISRUPTED Itanium adoption by PROLIFERATING x86_64 cores to achieve scalable performance and also being compatible with 32bit x86 binaries. Itanium never achieved the economy of scale that x86 & x64 was able to leverage to lower R&D costs per unit because of issue 5. Stack Exchange network consists of 176 Q&A communities including Stack Overflow, the largest, most trusted online community for developers to learn, share their knowledge, and build their careers. for AMD64), sharing some compiler know-how. To subscribe to this RSS feed, copy and paste this URL into your RSS reader. Can you identify anywhere a sequence of 100 instructions (*) which are exclusively free of memory accesses? “The operation was a success, although the patient died,” goes the old surgeon’s joke. Knowing the language rules give you more possibilities than if you are constrained by something already scheduled. Update the question so it's on-topic for Stack Overflow. With Itanium due in 1999 (and full of hype at this point), SGI canned the "Beast" project and decided to migrate. It's not like a good, well-understood solution to this problem didn't already exist: put that burden on Intel instead and give the compiler-writers a simpler target. I read that article, and I'm completely missing the "fiasco" he refers to. It's valid. Even worse, you didn't always have enough ILP to fit the template you were using - so you'd have to NOP-pad to fill out the template or the bundle. It then e-mails an HTML report with the following column headings: Title, KB Article, Classification, Product Title, Product Family Setters dependent on other instance variables in Java. What's the significance of the car freshener? Now, as a programmer, please load up any software of your choice into a disassembler. But Opteron launched two months before Madison and that's approximately where this whole charade should've ended. Is this purely down to marketing? 11 years later he's still basically right: per-thread performance is still very important for most non-server software, and something that CPU vendors focus on because many cores is no substitute. You need a C++ compiler, Java and given that the main user base would be Windows some sort of Visual Basic. It's its place in time and market forces. In a 2009 article on the history of the processor — "How the Itanium Killed the Computer Industry" — journalist John C. Dvorak reported "This continues to be one of the great fiascos of the last 50 years". Intel Corp. is working with Itanium 2 server vendors on a bug that has surfaced in the McKinley version of its Itanium processor family, an Intel spokeswoman said today. But why was the compiler stuff such a difficult technical problem? There a new version of Itanium out, the 2500 series. The engineering part was actually pretty successful. better post this before the machune crashes! Converting 3-gang electrical box to single. All very interesting, but you mostly explain why Itanium failed, whereas the question was about Intel's strategy in pushing Itanium. What is the application of `rev` in real life? I'm not sure why would some one call it a failure when it is generating billions of $ for HP (although it is not just the processor; it is itanium server sales that is generating revenue). EDIT: And Itanium had x86 compatibility from day 1, so that's not it. Maybe they were trying to make a premium tier and leave AMD, VIA, etc. Apparently they could afford it, and everybody else just dropped dead. How is Intel killing off all the competition, using a single product line, anything but the greatest microprocessor victory of all time? Itanium's simpler design would have pushed more stuff on the compiler (room for growth), allowing to build thinner,faster pipelines. Get a clue if you got the bucks to run an itanium, why criple it with the sins of the past. It's commonly stated that Intel's Itanium 64-bit processor architecture failed because the revolutionary EPIC instruction set was very difficult to write a good compiler for, which meant a lack of good developer tools for IA64, which meant a lack of developers creating programs for the architecture, and so no one wanted to use hardware without much software for it, and so the platform failed, and all for the want of a horseshoe nail good compilers. Itanium sucked performance wise for the money invested in it. BTW, I wished that AMD64 would have been some more RISCy instruction set. In this article Jonh Dvorak calls Itanium "one of the great fiascos of the last 50 years". Itanium as an architecture was not bad, the 3 instruction per word was not an issue. However, as a result, the page size is limited to 2M for pages that map >4GB . So how is this different from VLIW? What prevents a large company with deep pockets from rebranding my MIT project and killing me off? My (admitted unreliable and from someone who followed that from far) recollection is that what HP(*) and Intel failed to achieve on the compiler front is the language level extraction of parallelism, not the low level which would have been present in a byte code. Donald Knuth, a widely respected computer scientist, said in a 2008 interview that "the "Itanium" approach [was] supposed to be so terrific—until it turned out that the wished-for compilers were basically impossible to write." Other machines at the time - namely UltraSPARC - were in-order, but IPF had other considerations too. Intel y HP reconocen que Itanium no es competitivo y lo reemplazan por el Itanium 2 un año antes de lo planeado, en 2002. No existing software ran on itanium which was entirely the cause of its downfall. It could have been some POWERPC64 (but it probably wasn't because of patent issues, because of Microsoft demands at that time, etc...). There's enough instructions there to create good bundles. That's fine; the compiler already has that information, so it is straightforward for the compiler to comply. With the Alpha chip design team at AMD, the Athlon already showed their ability to create competitive performance and x86-64 takes away the 64 bit advantage. One was encoding space. Moderators: NeilBlanchard , Ralf Hutter , sthayashi , Lawrence Lee this is really programming related - just because it mentions hardware does not make it server fault material. Does "Ich mag dich" only apply to friendship? As a result, you ended up needing to rely on speculative features - namely, speculative loads (loads that were allowed to fail - useful if you didn't know if you'd need a load result) and advanced loads (loads that could be re-run, using recovery code, if a hazard occurred.) DeepMind just announced a breakthrough in protein folding, what are the consequences? In other words, it externalizes a secondary responsibility, while still failing to cope with the primary responsibility. Great points. http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~skadron/cs654/cs654_01/slides/ting.ppt, Itanium's VLIW instruction bundles frequently increased code size by a factor of 3 to 6 compared to CISC, especially in cases when the compiler could not find parallelism. I don't know why they don't just take x86_64, strip out all 32bit stuff and backwards compatible things like 8087 emulation, mmx etc. Itanium never achieved the necessary price/performance advantage necessary to overcome "platform inertia" because it was frequently delayed to compensate for issues 1-4. All these above factors slowed adoption of Itanium servers for the mainstream market. site design / logo © 2020 Stack Exchange Inc; user contributions licensed under cc by-sa. the 3 instructions/word have been good as long as the processor had 3 functional units to process them, but once Intel went to newer IA64 chips they added more functional units, and the instruction-level parallelism was once again hard to achieve. -- so where people were strung along from 1998 to 2002 to wait for McKinley now that the year of McKinley arrived, they were told, wait that's too expensive, the next one will be better, or if not, then the one after. The big barrier at the time was 4 GB RAM on desktop PCs (more realistically ~3.4GB usable on Windows). Part of it were technical reasons, such as that the initial product was too large/expensive and not fast enough to be competitive, especially not compared to AMD's x64. But why was the compiler stuff such a difficult technical problem? Convert negadecimal to decimal (and back). It's not like a good, well-understood solution to this problem didn't already exist: put that burden on Intel instead and give the compiler-writers a simpler target. Why is the pitot tube located near the nose? Working with WSUS, I sometimes find myself declining the exact same type of updates each month after Patch Tuesday. The question can be rephrased as: "Given a hardware platform that is destined to be a failure, why (1) didn't (2) couldn't the compiler writers make a heroic effort to redeem it?". The AMD Opteron. Instruction-Level Parallel Processors ). The notice will apply to the Itanium 9720, 9740, 9750, 9760 models as well as the Intel C112 and C114 Scalable Memory Buffer. This was part of a response about the value of multi-core processors. Erm. As you look to deploy these feature updates in your organization, I want to tell you about some changes we are making to the way Windows Server Update Services … In short, Intel tried to make a revolutionary leap with the IA64 architecture, and AMD made an evolutionary step with x86-64. Instruction-Level Parallel Processors, http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~skadron/cs654/cs654_01/slides/ting.ppt, http://web.eece.maine.edu/~vweaver/papers/iccd09/iccd09_density.pdf. Itanium came out in 1997. It's commonly stated that Intel's Itanium 64-bit processor architecture failed because the revolutionary EPIC instruction set was very difficult to write a good compiler for, which meant a lack of good developer tools for IA64, which meant a lack of developers creating programs for the architecture, and so no one wanted to use hardware without much software for it, and so the platform failed, and all for the want of … was not that simple; converting a large set of C programs which assumed a 32 bit integer and assumed 32 bit addressing to a native 64 bit architecture was full of pitfalls. Compilers have decent success at extracting instruction-level parallelism, as are modern CPU hardware. There were also branch and cache prefetch hints that could really only be used intelligently by an assembly programmer or using profile-guided optimization, not generally with a traditional compiler. The Itanium chip might have given Intel much grief, but it is through difficult and sometimes failed projects that companies learn. This ate into available memory bandwidth, which was becoming an increasingly limited resource at the time Itanium was released. Put simply, Itanium failed in part because Intel pushed a task into software that software compilers aren’t capable of addressing all that effectively. February 24, 2020 seasoned_geek. What are the technical reasons behind the “Itanium fiasco”, if any? I think Itanium still has its market - high end systems and HP blade servers. VLIW machines can and do execute multiple bundles at once (if they don't conflict). Why do most Christians eat pork when Deuteronomy says not to? How can one plan structures and fortifications in advance to help regaining control over their city walls? Actually, I shouldn’t say the project failed. By this point, the UCSD P-Code bytecode system was nearly 20 years old, the Z-machine just slightly younger, and the JVM was the hot new rising star in the world of programming languages. Intel and Itanium, in my book, ranks up there with Microsoft and MS-DOS: despite how lousy it may have been technically, it enabled them to utterly dominate the industry. How do I orient myself to the literature concerning a topic of research and not be overwhelmed? As to why Itanium failed I am not informed enough to give you a complete answer. As he mentions near the end, at the mere sight of Itanium, "one promising project after another was dropped". Who doesn't love being #1? Many have tried all have failed. It is an example of failure to apply the 80-20 rule of optimization: Optimizing things that are already fast will not meaningfully improve overall performance, unless the slower things are also being optimized. (This was before Thumb2, et al - RISC still meant fixed-length rigidity.) [closed], early Itanium CPUs execute up to 2 VLIW bundles per clock cycle, 6 instructions, informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=1193856, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Top500.procfamily.png. How do I know if the compiler broke my code and what do I do if it was the compiler? They maintain a dynamic instruction window of roughly 100 instructions, and within that window they execute instructions whenever their inputs become ready. If anyone does not catch the sense of fatalism from that article, let me highlight this: Load responses from a memory hierarchy which includes CPU caches and DRAM do not have a deterministic delay. Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube. Hewlett-Packard decided later to outsource the development of OpenVMS to VMS Software Inc. (VSI) headquartered in Bolton (Massachusetts, the USA). There a new version of Itanium out, the 2500 series. Itanium designed rested on the philosophy of very wide instruction level parallelism to scale performance of a processor when clock frequency limit is imposed due to thermal constraints. AMD's move was so successful that Intel (and Via) were essentially forced to adopt the x86-64 architecture. What a truly pathetic business model! In hindsight, the failure of Itanium (and the continued pouring of R&D effort into a failure, despite obvious evidence) is an example of organizational failure, and deserves to be studied in depth. So fast chip with a reasonable OS but a very limited set of software available, therefore not many people bought it, therefore not many software companies provided products for it. Itanium failed to make significant inroads against IA-32 or RISC, and suffered further following the arrival of x86-64 systems which offered greater compatibility with older x86 applications. So you have to know how and why it works at least a little. Lactic fermentation related question: Is there a relationship between pH, salinity, fermentation magic, and heat? Neither SPARC nor MIPS offers exceptional performance on the type of applications Alpha is good at. 2. Closed again. Is it worth getting a mortgage with early repayment or an offset mortgage? For scientific computation, where you get at least a few dozens of instructions per basic block, VLIW probably works fine. Where did the concept of a (fantasy-style) "dungeon" originate? Incompatibility with x86 code? The issue with EPIC is that it can use only the parallelism that a compiler can find, and extracting that parallelism is hard. What you describes is a bit what Transmeta tried to do with their code morphing software (which was dynamically translating x86 "bytecode" into Transmeta internal machine code). Itanium was announced in 1997 (as Merced at the time) but it didn't ship until 2000 which is what eventually doomed it, really. What is the easiest way in C# to check if hard disk is SSD without writing any file on hard disk? Complexity of compilers? AFAIK, Intel EPIC failed because compilation for EPIC is really hard, and also because when compiler technology slowly and gradually improved, other competitors where also able to improve their compiler (e.g. AFAIR, he wasn't talking about Intel's fiasco, only about the "Itanium project" fiasco... Would you call MS-DOS a fiasco, then? which prevented it from competing vs out-of-order PowerPC CPUs. Also the IA64 architecture has builtin some strong limitations, e.g. In particular: It was late, eventually shipping for the first time in the middle of 2001; It was initially underpowered … The main problem is that non-deterministic memory latency means that whatever "instruction pairing" one has encoded for the VLIW/EPIC processor will end up being stalled by memory access. What is this “denormal data” about ? http://web.eece.maine.edu/~vweaver/papers/iccd09/iccd09_density.pdf. Why did George Lucas ban David Prowse (actor of Darth Vader) from appearing at sci-fi conventions? Re:Why Itanium Failed. It wasn't x86 compatible. Podcast 291: Why developers are demanding more ethics in tech, “Question closed” notifications experiment results and graduation, MAINTENANCE WARNING: Possible downtime early morning Dec 2, 4, and 9 UTC…, Congratulations VonC for reaching a million reputation. Is there a way to notate the repeat of a larger section that itself has repeats in it? This meant you couldn't rely on reorder to save you in the event of a cache miss or other long-running event. Compilers have access to optimization info that OOO hardware won't have at run time, but OOO hardware has access to information that is not available to the compiler, If it is externally, starting from a byte-code make it even harder than starting from an higher level language. I don't think even the Mill team make that claim (their merit factor include power). Itanium's main market now is a mission critical enterprise computing which is a good $10B+/year market dominated only by HP, IBM and Sun. DeepMind just announced a breakthrough in protein folding, what are the consequences. Their non-VLIW compilers are top-notch, regularly pumping out code much faster than other compilers. PSE avoids this layer by instead using 4 reserved bits in the page tables to specify the high bits. Why was the Itanium processor difficult to write a compiler for? The second key difference is that out-of-order processors determine these schedules dynamically (i.e., each dynamic instruction is scheduled independently; the VLIW compiler operates on static instructions). What IBM said was that with PowerPC, you could compile bytecode quickly and the CPU would make it fast. - C++. Historical background for EPIC instruction set architectures, EPIC: An Architecture for In response to answer by Basile Starynkevitch. In reality, prefetching is only profitable if you are performing streaming operations (reading memory in a sequential, or highly predictable manner). David W. Hess (dwhess@banishedsouls.org) on 7/6/09 wrote: >My observations at the time were that the 386 performance increase over the 286 The compiler simply can't find independent instructions to put in the bundles. While i've always felt that the argument of "the compiler was the one and only problem" was overblown - there were legitimate microarchitectural issues that really did I2 no favors for general-purpose code - it was not especially fun to generate code for compared to the narrower, higher-clocked OoO machines of the day. Memory is getting vague... Itanium had some great ideas that would need great compiler support. IBM has had many failed projects – the Stretch system from the 1950s and the Future Systems follow-on in the 1970s are but two. The coping strategies (mentioned in the same article) assumes that software-based prefetching can be used to recover at least part of the performance loss due to non-deterministic latency from memory access. It also isn’t hard to understand why Compaq’s chose Itanium. [81] Itanium failed because VLIW for today's workloads is simply an awful idea. At the time of release software developers were waiting for a decent marketshare before writing software for it and PC buyers were waiting for a decent amount of software before buying. BTW, for me variable latency -- between models, data dependent for some instructions in some model, memory access is obviously a major category here -- is one aspect of the difficulty of parallelism extraction. Do MEMS accelerometers have a lower frequency limit? What killed Itanium was shipment delays that opened the door for AMD64 to step in before software vendors commited to migrate to IA64 for 64 bit apps. The compilers had to patch up late-to-detect flaws of CPU implementations, and some of the performance edge was lost to hard to predict mistakes. Well, they were also late (planned for 98, first shipment in 2001) and when they finally delivered the hardware, I'm not even sure that it delivered what was promised for the earlier date (IIRC, they at least dropped part of the x86 emulation which was initially planned), so I'm not sure that even if the compilation problems has been solved (and AFAIK, it has not yet), they would have succeeded. They employ many talented engineers and computer scientists. DSP. by SunFan on Monday February 28, 2005 @01:50PM and attached to IBM to Drop Itanium. By making their architecture backwards compatible with the x86 instruction set, AMD was able to leverage the existing tools and developer skill sets. Register to join beta. As a former compiler writer, it's true that being able to take an existing compiler back and tweak it for performance is better than writing one all over again. What was an issue is the hyper-threading implementation by swapping stacks during memory IO was too slow (to empty and reload the pipeline) until Montecito etc. How can I discuss with my manager that I want to explore a 50/50 arrangement? In an established market, evolutionary steps that allow knowledge workers to leverage existing skills will win over revolutionary steps that require everyone to learn new skills. Intel® Itanium® Processor product listing with links to detailed product features and specifications. Hybrids between von-Neumann and dataflow do exist (Wavescalar). There is a second aspect of the failure which is also fatal. There were a number of reasons why Itanium (as it became known in 1999) failed to live up to its promise. Sad. Non-mainstream RISCs are losing grounds; They didn't see that or hoped it would become mainstream; too bad it wouldn't because there weren't any reasons for that. @OregonGhost: this is not a PC configuration question. What is the output of a fingerprint scanner? Removing intersect or overlap of points in the same vector layer, Building algebraic geometry without prime ideals. Intel are probably the. Any memory access (read or write) has to be scheduled by DMA transfer; Every instruction has the same execution latency. Itanium failed to make significant inroads against IA-32 or RISC, and suffered further following the arrival of x86-64 systems which offered greater compatibility with older x86 applications. It increases the size of page table entries to 8 bytes, allowing bigger addresses. The IPF platform bet on the compiler and tools, and it was the first archiecture to expose an extremely complete and powerful Performance Monitoring Unit (PMU) design, that was later ported back to Intel x86. Why is a third body needed in the recombination of two hydrogen atoms? Let me put it another way. Asked by Adah Doyle. rev 2020.12.2.38097, The best answers are voted up and rise to the top, Software Engineering Stack Exchange works best with JavaScript enabled, Start here for a quick overview of the site, Detailed answers to any questions you might have, Discuss the workings and policies of this site, Learn more about Stack Overflow the company, Learn more about hiring developers or posting ads with us, Really-low-level IRs (that are actually specified beyond being internal to one compiler, and intended to be compiled onto specific hardware rather than interpreted portably) are a more recent invention AFAIK. If it is in the processor, you have just another micro-architecture and there is no reason not to use x86 as public ISA (at least for Intel, the incompatibility has an higher cost than whatever could bring a cleaner public ISA). However, the page tables then hold fewer entries so an extra layer of page tables is added. IPF was in-order, for one. Sort of the best out of both approaches. Itanium failed because it used a VLIW architecture - great for specialized processing tasks on big machines but for general purpose computing (ie. The third key difference is that implementations of out-of-order processors can be as wide as wanted, without changing the instruction set (Intel Core has 5 execution ports, other processors have 4, etc). Well, the only reason really is HP-UX. (*) You also seem to underestimate HP role in EPIC. TL;DR: 1/ there are other aspects in the failure of Itanium than the compiler issues and they may very well be enough to explain it; 2/ a byte code would not have solved the compiler issues. So this initial problem of "chicken and egg" seemed to be solved. It merely says that the burden of indicating data dependency now falls on the compiler. I guess that their management underestimated the efforts needed to make a compiler. Is there any reason why Intel didn't specify a "simple Itanium bytecode" language, and provide a tool that converts this bytecode into optimized EPIC code, leveraging their expertise as the folks who designed the system in the first place? This made me wonder why exactly this processor is so unpopular and, I think, failed. Granted, the vendor's other ventures, such as hyperthreading, SIMD, etc., appears to be highly successful. For future processor architectures the strategy you describe might be good now that the JVM has demonstrated that a JIT can achieve general-purpose code performance that's competitive with native code, but I don't think that was clear when IA64 was being developed. In other words, any hardware design that fails to cope with (*) the non-deterministic latency from memory access will just become a spectacular failure. How do I place the Clock arrows inside this clock face? POWER would be an option, but IBM is a competitor and Compaq already has a working relationship with Intel. Aleksandr, as an aside, dataflow architectures have all dependencies explicit. [failed verification] According to Intel, it skips the 45 nm process technology and uses a 32 nm process technology. As Robert Munn pointed out -- it was the lack of backward compatibility that killed the Itanium ( and many other "new" technologies). While he describes the over-optimistic market expectations and the dramatic financial outcome of the idea, he doesn't go into the technical details of this epic fail. (That said, if your code makes frequent access to some localized memory areas, caching will help.). Reordering of memory and arithmetic instructions by modern compilers is the evidence that it has no problem identifying operations that are independently and thus concurrently executable. When you could really properly fill it, which often involved either PGO or hand-coding, it did great - but a lot of the time, performance from compilers was really just uninspiring. Assuming this doesn't merely resolve to "what were they thinking," it's a pretty good question. To help explain why it is not always possible to find enough work to fill up the stalls, here is how one could visualize it. More details on this issue are available here. The first Itanium chip was delayed to 2001 and failed to impress most potential customers who stuck to their x86, Power and SPARC chips. A lot of stuff can be done static that otherwise is inefficient in hardware. Second, Itanium world (~2001): Updates in processor design and manufacturing can deliver 1.1x speedups. Regardless of the qualitative differences between the architectures, IA64 could not overcome the momentum of its own x86 platform once AMD added the x86-64 extensions. The compiler aspect was not the only aspect which was overly ambitious. Processor architecture as a lot to do with programming. Windows Server 2008 R2 builds on the award-winning foundation of Windows Server 2008, expanding existing technology and adding new features to enable organizations to increase the reliability and flexibility of their server infrastructures. Choose a random function for analysis. It was hard to make a single binary that performed optimally on multiple generations of Itanium processors. I've heard some JITs gave worse perfomance than interpreters on Itanium because gcc optimized interpreter better; that's a no-go if a processor requires that level of optimizations. Early chips were atrocious. And as several explained, EPIC compilation is really hard. The big problem is that when it asked me to run root.sh on both node 1 & 2 it returns Checking to see if Oracle CRS stack is already configured Setting the permissions on OCR backup directory Setting up NS directories Failed to upgrade Oracle Cluster Registry configuration. There were a number of reasons why Itanium (as it became known in 1999) failed to live up to its promise. Microsoft was never full-in and embraced AMD64 to not be boxed-in with only Intel as a player, and Intel didn't play right with AMD to give them a way to live in the ecosystem, as they intended to snuff AMD. Building algebraic geometry without prime ideals, I accidentally added a character, and then forgot to write them in for the rest of the series. Getting these right was hard, advanced loads especially! No one knows if its hardware or software, but it just isn't do-able. It's commonly stated that Intel's Itanium 64-bit processor architecture failed because the revolutionary EPIC instruction set was very difficult to write a good compiler for. Schedule the following script to decline all Itanium updates. By: Mark Christiansen (aliasundercover.delete@this.nospam.net), July 6, 2009 8:07 am. There is a hint in "Intel would have been happy to have everyone [...]" but it's not clear to me if you're implying whether this was a deliberate decision by Intel (and if so, what you have to support this assertion). Look at SGI Mips, DEC Alpha... Itanium was just supported by the loosers, SGI & HP servers, companies with managements that piled on strategic business mistakes. Despite all attempts taken, DEC failed to make prices on their Alpha processors, ... OpenVMS 8.4 for Alpha and Itanium was released in June of 2010. site design / logo © 2020 Stack Exchange Inc; user contributions licensed under cc by-sa. And downvoted. The question waited for you so long :-) As for the quote, I believe it is from Donald Knuth: Why has noone made an architecture where instructions carry additional info (about dependencies, etc) to make out-of-order easier/cheaper? by m50d on Monday February 28, 2005 @02:43PM and attached to IBM to Drop Itanium. HP has been at this since 1988 when they acquired Cydrome IP and hired Bob Rau and Michael Schlansker from the company when it collapsed (see Historical background for EPIC instruction set architectures and EPIC: An Architecture for We chose at the time instead to build PowerPC back ends to support the flavors of Unix boxes that were being built on it. By 1993 they decide it's worth developing it into a product and they are looking for a semiconductor manufacturing partner and in 1994 they announce their partnership with Intel.

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